nooBie noOBie NOob nOOb!!!!

[Hermskii]

It was me. I had spawn protection on CG before and everyone and I mean everyone complained and hated it so I took it back off after about 4 days of being grilled by the populous. MEAT is right. It is a different story now-a-days and people tend to prefer what they first learn with. To each their own. Like I said, there is not a right answer unless the majority of your players write you emails saying they won't play anymore until you undo your latest change that you thought might improve the game. I generally listen to the players though I reserve the right to ignore them too whenever I feel like it. Later!

[DARKMATTER]

I can imagine, a small map with a room full of people...it had to of sucked? That is why I'm leery in adding it to my server.
Like I said before I do have a few small maps that I like and this would ruin or change its playability a bit.
But again it would give the respawn player time to adjust....which is fair I think....especially when a lot of players know where the spawn points are.
Same goes for sniping....if you know the spawn points it kind of takes the challenge out of the game and gives a disadvantage to respawners.
Don't you think?

I dont know about taking the challenge out of the game rather changes the challenge to get away from the spawn points faster getting stuck in the L.O.P (Loop of Poop) as it's known was always a laugh for the other players (and depending on the player the one in it) and just something to get out off and make the best you could once you did, some maps you could be stuck in it the whole time and yes then it wasn't fun but you had the next map to make it up as i have said in redeemer i dont see a problem with spawn killing if you play with big guns its gonna happen and its even a tactic in the game if you happen to fly past a player as he spawns you dont see him but hear him its up to you to judge were he is and explode it accordingly and for the record i have never been a lover of the spray and pray method i like to chase down my prey in hide and guide i will however spray a map if i see a player err like meat running the map in hopes of hitting him, and as i said in the other post i totally agree in other forms of ut play spawn killing is out your right sitting watching a spawn point just sucks .......

[bumMmonkeY]

No, doubt that spawn killing back in those days was crucial to the game.
i dont contest that at all. BUT. times have changed and if (for some sick twisted reason) i wanted to play ut99 like the olden days id frequent CG or (god forbid) KID CAPRIS.
BUT
MRS is the closest thing i can find to a decent deemer server. Having said that...if a server came along that had zero tolerance to spawn killing(no offence MEAT) but you know where id be playing.
I try to suggest other servers to our regular spawn killers and just quite simply recieve abuse for it...even tho it makes perfect sense, you wanna go for spawn kills? go to a server that allows for it and dosnt really descriminate against it rather than being a pain in the bum to MEATS regulars.
Ive seen it all to often. they will only play certain maps. DARK CITY, HALL OF LEGENDS ect and leave as soon as they hit something like my beloved BUTTERCUP or ALAM FORNA ect.

MEAT..i for one would love to see a trial of bunnyfoofoo.
Id also like to see some maps dissapear for larger maps.
Lets face it, there are only a handfull of decent players in MRS and the rest are not interested in devolping skills but insist on being blemishes on the face of deemers. The larger maps still allow for spawn killing except that it happens ALOT slower and they come last everytime.
I say force em to see the error of their ways...like everything else, its survival of the fittest..no lion in the wild gets fed by sitting by a bush and waits for its pray to pop up in front of it...it would starve... yet it has to run around and FIND its food and HUNT and KILL....its time to award those who work for their game...not the one who dosnt work for it.

if i were a server admin id be a spawn kill NAZI!!

getting really bored with the ARGUEMENT as itkeeps being pointed to "opinion" when in fact opinion has nothing to do with it. as SPAWN KILLING requires absolutly NO SKILL...i dont care how DELUDED you are, you know deep down that its FACT!
the only skill in spawn killing is evading death before reaching a certain spawn killing position.
Tell me PRO SPAWN KILLERS am i wrong?
of course i am because you cant see past the fact that your wasting YOUR time and every body elses and you actually BELIEVE that your fair and talented.

do me a favour and just TRY and sit down and THINK about it...dont just disregard the fact...actually have a think about what could possibly rub players who are trying to have a decent game the wrong way.

Now ive been getting quite annoyed with the amount of spawn killers that have joined MRS recently. We are now seeing an al time low of time wasters in MRS.
ALMOST to the point now that id prefer to enter MRS to play with the bots.
And everytime something is said i recieve alot of abuse to the fact that a warning was issued the other day to some twit for swearing too much. he DID have a potty mouth!!
oh and for the record, my mum dosnt even have a PUMKIN PATCH!!
lmao!

i always get to the botom of these posts and think "UGH! why bother, its not gunna change!"

buMmMmMmMonkey

[LePoLoo]

... mmm


Fortunately, there are players who like... having fun on any kinda server

[MEAT]

Loop of Poop and Spray and Pray can be considered forms of spawn killing. Basically "Killing someone before they have a chance to compete".
Sure we all can debate this issue until we're blue in the face, but to me it is still not fair....but I understand its roots and can respect that.

I really think we should all have an opportuity to start on somewhat of an equal playing field.
But like bumMmonkeY said, " UGH why bother, it's not gunna change".
And he is right, it won't change because of variables...such as map size, amount of people playing, bots...etc
And you can't tell everyone to stop shooting because we're waiting for someone to respawn.
So.....come early next week I'm going to unleash BunnyFooFoo !!!
Wait Wait don't leave the server quite yet it's just a trial run!
And when you think about it it will only affect the smaller maps I have, which are few.
Again, it's just a trial run, I doubt I will keep it for long.
I just want to see if it will work.
And if people hate it...it's gone.

[DARKMATTER]

I totally agree with you over spawn killing and servers which is why i have played on meats maybe 5 times four of them when he first set it up and once just the other day to see if he had the protection running, if you want the server to be played on a certain way that's the way it should be. when meat puts on B.F.F i wouldnt mind watching in spec mode tho to see all the non spawn killing players kill spawning players ...

[Hook]

... mmm


Fortunately, there are players who like... having fun on any kinda server

Yeah - Me too!

Sure we all can debate this issue until we're blue in the face, but to me it is still not fair....but I understand its roots and can respect that.

You can also say that an uzzi or a zark rifle is unfair but that is what is played with on those servers.
Of course there everyone has them LOL.
I know what you meant MEAT!

[Hermskii]

I think that no matter what you do, you won't stop spawn killing. I know how to play around spawn protection and still kill spawns but it is harder that way to play that way. So maybe Bunny Foo Foo might be able to assist in stopping this.

Again though I HAVE TO SAY that there is tons of skill in learning to play against spawn killing. I hear what several people are saying about thinking that there is no skill in playing that way but I can say with 100% confidence that they are wrong. Until they are restricted to maps and mods that only support this method for you to have ANY chance of winning, you will not understand. That said, it sounds a lot to me that rather than learn the old hard way, people would rather complain and want the safe haven of spawn protection.

You can say I'm wrong all you want and at this point in time it would be hard for me to prove but way way back about 3-4 years ago I could have proven this with my eyes closed on any night on any server running this mod.

Everyone against spawn killing isn't wrong. But I feel it is safe to say that no-one against it learned playing the original and only way offered for a near majority of the time that UT and this mod were married.

I'm sorry to say but until you have STRICKLY and only played the "old school way" you really don't even have a say in this argument. REALLY! Walk in mine and many others shoes even half as far as I and many others have walked before you comment. Until then, you'll only sound like a child of a successful parent. A child who never saw the beginnings of what the parent had to go through to be successful. It may be a weak comparison but it is true.

Like I said, I have dibs on the server that allows and promotes this method of play which nearly can't be stopped even using none spawn-kill mods. My server's rules are simple. No bad names, no bad language and no bad sportsmanship. That's it! I figure that covers all of the basics for sure. I used to have no cheating too and ran a no-cheat mod but that too came under intense scrutiny immediately so I removed it but I can't even imagine how one would cheat except using radar and or god mode. I've seen both but the players left pretty quick because they still lost or saw there was no fun in cheating.

Muhahahaha. Let me stress that no matter what you say and no matter what you do, until you -play and win against 5 or more old regulars of SRA on my SRA Flash-Back server you don't have room to talk about whether spawnkilling requires skill or not. Since my chances of having any of you play under this set of criteria I mentioned, the only you have to go by is the posts of people who were there like me and know what I'm saying is true. Re-read this entire thread. Many people have already chimed in and verified what I said. MANY PEOPLE have done this. Chances are good that if any new generation player played against even only 3 old schoolers on my "old school" server they'd lose badly. How could they expect to win not knowing the skill-sets required to live long enough to compete.

So please, feel what you want about run and gun or as several people call it "Spray and pray" but don't knock it till you at least play it for a few weeks. Until then, you can say what you want but your opinion can't carry any weight being you never really played it enough to learn that there is an incredible amount of skill required to win one of these rounds much less finish with a score above 10. Later!

[Hermskii]

I just thought of a simple challenge to prove my point. Somebody take a screen shot of their victory playing on the new CG SRA Flashback server beating an old schooler on a map like Deck16][. Especially Deck16][ since it was the main map played back in the days. Beat a player like Death Inc, Kind@Bud, Mahatma, Schwantz, Whose Your Daddy, DeadMan Walking, Bodacious, Lara Croft, Nautimus Maximus, Skank, Torpid, Salmo Salar or Salad, Fred Farkel, Sphincter Boy, Taykia, Yoshitsune, Zatterfatz, Knatterfatz, Coroner de Fatz, Scify, Evil Buddha, Curtis Welt, Gator, N6NU, Fluke, SOAR, Ratboy, Hookster, KitterKat, Cougar, Lacutas, GermaniaFatz, Herr de Fatz, Viruz and yes many-many other old players of this mod from the beginning.

Beat more than one of them at a time on any original map using this mod on my server and then you can and should tell us about how this requires no skill. Beware, I have heard several originals are coming back in soon to look around. Muhahahaha! Most of all, ENJOY!

[Hermskii]

For those of you who are interested, here is the original link to the original (yet now locked-down) website that belonged to the founder of SRA (Schwantz's redeemer Arena) and all of this redeemer mod stuff. That person is Schwantz. Here is his website though it no longer links to the original forum and is cut back somewhat from it's last known greatness:

http://www.schwantz.50megs.com/filespage.html

[Scify]

There place Old school players know places spawn points . There are aways to stop them.you Just keep watch what going on.There is place you land one deck 16 .u turn quick and fireand same time move back Got player and U live. Unless he fire just second before u spawn there U DIE timing.I haven't play much I use too. So I am rusty. Other way too play I am rusty but I am Hide-n-giude player I am good at that.In fact I getting better at it. One game I play some player they got me I was in open but I hide in deep in place .They found I was shooting but they couldn't reach me. . I doing hide-n-glide it different ways out place I trick them to thinking I am somewhere .

[MEAT]

I'll say it again if we didn't get it the first time, "we can all debate this issue until we're blue in the face but I understand its roots and I can respect that".
And it doesn't matter if it's today or yesterday, " a spray is a spray and a spawn kill is a spawn kill". They don't and won't change they just exist. However they just don't exist all that much on my server. Doesn't make my server better then any others just makes my server an alternative or an option.

Now for something different for you to think about and the reason why I started my server:
I think there are a number of ways to play or use different weapons on a map. For example take Deck 16, you can play that map with a number of different weapons...lets say a redeemer, which we play with now. Or use only a rifle, which is possible. Or any 15 other weapons. No matter what you use on that map, it will play different with each weapon. With pro's and con's.
Now the point that is somewhat over looked and what I've tried to stress earlier in my UT career is...."is that weapon compatible and playable with that map?" In other words would it make sense to use that particular weapon in that map? For example using a Redeemer in the DM-Fractal or the DM-KGalleon map? Sure it makes for an exciting and quick game if we played with a redeemer but would it be reasonable to take that weapon into an arena that size? Well not really...being that it's a smaller map it might play better if we use just a pistol and maybe add a teleportor.
If I were designing a game or building a map I would take that in consideration...and I think the orginal makers of UT did do that. But we had spin-offs and add- ons along the way. Not saying they did a bad job at it but they did the best they could with what they had to work with. And they were very creative along the way.....hell I couldn't do it.
All I did was say, "hey, I think the Redeemer is to big for these maps". lets bring in some bigger maps so we can take advantage of the guiding power of the redeemer. And I still think the smaller maps would play better if we used a Rocket Launcher instead of the Redeemer...think about it?

Hmmm....with all that being said I kind of got off the subject and forgot where I was going with my thoughts......damn beers.
But until then I'll just keep playing with an oversized nuclear weapon on oversized maps. With the ocassional small map or two for grins.

[Hermskii]

Let me stress that the argument isn't about which server is more popular or how the game should be played.

I'm simply stressing that there are players who think there is no skill required in using Run and Gun in UT while using the Redeemer Only Mod. I have only argued that there is skill required and I have supported this fact with many other people saying it is true who learned the skill. I also offered a way for those non believers to prove it to themselves.

I'm not saying that playing like this is right or wrong. I'm saying that it was started like this and no one can say differently. I'm also saying that people that have never beaten old school regulars playing like this shouldn't say it doesn't require skill. I respect that they hate the way it was played and that they hate when it still happens on any server they play on today at times. My point is that you can't knock it till you try it and you certainly can't knock the skills required until you've beaten some good players while playing with this strategy.

So lets not say we're beating a dead horse but rather we are trying to specify the truth in that whether you like it or not there is a great deal of skill required to play on a server where everyone knows the accepted strategy being run and gun or spray and pray or whatever you want to call it. I agree too that it must suck for the players that don't like this method when players that do like it use it.

Any questions?

[MEAT]

Being that UT and mostly UT servers back 8 years ago were only providing smaller maps I understand that that was the only way to win.
Especially if you were playing "Redeemer" in maps designed for hand to hand combat.
And I don't think the makers of UT thought there would ever be any "Redeemer" server out there....so they made smaller/tighter maps.
Designed more for the small weapon and close combat.

That being said and like I've said 101 times before, "If you're going to play the smaller maps you have no choice but to "spray and pray".
And you have to spawn kill, for the most part, if you want to win.
Not necessary a legitimate aspect of the game but a necessity when it come to smaller maps.

And sure, practice and learning maps is a start but it doesn't necessarily make you a good player.
It's those that can adapt to any situation or any map that we should consider our better players.

And one last thought.
In a perfect world or a perfect gaming society I think we should play against real people and not against bots and map irregularities.
But until that time comes we have no choice but to play what is dealt to us.
Just one mans opinion so don't quote me as gospel.

I feel ya Hermskii and couldn't agree more...to an extent.
But I don't actually think the skill lies in the person doing the spraying because when you think about it we all can spray. Actually the skill lies in the person that has the correct strategic location within that map. That person/sprayer has an upper hand on all the other sprayers in that map. It’s that person, the one with more map knowledge, which will have a tendency to win more games. And that holds true for any map for that matter....just the technique changes. Although on the other hand there are variables that may change the out come of such an event. For example two people playing one on one with no bots. Or one sprayer playing against one person that hides and guides.
Now we can talk about who has game and we can talk about doing some challenges and we can talk about playing on different servers.
But, I've been down this road since day one and I've never had any takers.

[LePoLoo]

May I add a small polemic to this "dead horse" ?.....

I think that some players could be good in any kind of game (spraying or guiding) but they can't do as well as they could... because of their ping... (may be am I speaking about mine ).
I remember some maps where I've been turning very long moments in the air waiting to respan to be blown while some 25 to 50 ping players make their 30 frags with 3 o 4 redeemers sent each second !
I can tell ya how frustrating it is to shoot 20 times a game. (bad ping is awful even in sniper gaming !... I tested that)

And some other players often win in maps where ping helps and leave everytime that their ping isn't a weapon anymore... hmmm

Obviousely I don't talk about every player having a nice low ping... A noob can't be helped by his ping but when players have a good skill level, the ping is a real weapon.
I don't want to give any name here but all the regs can remeber who leave the game every time the ping isn't a serious help.

polemic... or not... go ahead guys ! Let everybody know