Converting MA to MH

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EvilGrins
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Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:03 pm

A stretch back Nelsona encouraged the start of some mapping projects, and I lagged on it until now. Both in editing some sucky MH maps but mainly to convert MA (the long overlooked Monster Arena that came with the original release of Monster Hunt) to playable MH maps.

MA is a lot like MH but it's much more simplified, more set on an arena scale than a massively detailed map. Usually only a couple rooms and the games generally end once you kill a Boss Monster...

...except for some sucky ones where the game doesn't end at all.

I'm at work so I'll have to upload the map later, but here's my first entry for editing:
Image
MA-theSkaarjLord

Simple setup: 2 rooms, a small starting point and the massive final room with the boss. There's a narrow downhill slope (pic above) between them... and obviously a bunch of SkaarjAssassins.

The boss is a SkaarjLord that's Godzilla sized.

What's supposed to happen is you kill the boss and the map ends... but unfortunately when you kill the boss, then kill all the foot soldiers, you're basically stuck on an ugly map.

I will upload the map tomorrow night, won't be home until then, and see if anyone can fix it (doesn't have to just be Nelsona) and then we can see if it's feasible to switch to an MH version.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Sun Jul 28, 2013 11:10 am

Okay, here's the map.

Random question: Do the upgrades to MonsterHunt.u still include Monster Arena? I only updated mine so far but that was years ago.
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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:05 am

EvilGrins wrote:I will upload the map tomorrow night, won't be home until then, and see if anyone can fix it (doesn't have to just be Nelsona) and then we can see if it's feasible to switch to an MH version.
I checked level, as you said, I don't really mind to fix it. Being an UT forum here I want to hear more opinions related to this example of BAD mapping, and how to do a fix even as ugly as it is (Now I noticed presence of this map in my collection and I did a small check).

Issues:
- It won't end;
- Bot support 1/2 works because of stuff placement, not with order attack - here I don't expect to see more answers only something like - Bot is idiot -, in fact is simple to see who is idiot reading about this subject intensive;
- Conversion to MH ? Very possible but... I don't see what can be so cool for such a map played by 16 people. Can be converted for testing to see how many votes will develop. Conversion might solve issues from MonsterArena game-type left unfinished and trashed.
Poor Player's console quote:

Code: Select all

.....
ScriptWarning: MonsterHUD MA-TheSkaarjlord.MonsterHUD0 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHUD.DrawGameSynopsis:027A) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: MonsterHUD MA-TheSkaarjlord.MonsterHUD0 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHUD.PostRender:004C) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: MonsterHUD MA-TheSkaarjlord.MonsterHUD0 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHUD.DrawGameSynopsis:016F) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: MonsterHUD MA-TheSkaarjlord.MonsterHUD0 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHUD.DrawGameSynopsis:0215) Accessed None
ScriptWarning: MonsterHUD MA-TheSkaarjlord.MonsterHUD0 (Function MonsterHunt.MonsterHUD.DrawGameSynopsis:027A) Accessed None
....
This game-type without a mutator to fix HUD will spread more MB of log to player in a few minutes. Might be a solution to be played as MH with whatever desired mutator.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Jul 29, 2013 12:18 pm

Nelsona wrote:I don't see what can be so cool for such a map played by 16 people.
Had a similar chat on ut99.org in my 'Screenshots for fun' thread about one map I posted. I was asked if I had an really quality maps, as opposed to that one which was really sucky...

My response was this: To all collections you have maps of all calibres. Some are great, some of them suck. All that matters, to me, is that they're fun.

MA-TheSkaarjLord is very basic but even broken it's kinda fun. As a workable MH, with bot pathing, it would still be fun.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Mon Jul 29, 2013 3:53 pm

Ok then. Converting to MH, just my advices and I repeat, to MH not an assumed mod A B C full of lamer features.

1) Map has paths but no target for Bot.
Solution: Remove the crap MonsterArenaEnd and put the trigger MonsterEnd with the same collision radius and height but placed lower (as a pathnode) not in air, 15000, 15000 and near a pathnode.

2) No healing spot closer to playerstarts, neither far away, battle will do sucks in default MH and also is very poor in ammo.
Solution: add more ammo, use a decent respawntime (12-15 seconds) also other weaponry might help players with different tastes in weaponry. Armors, Shields ?
A kind of weapon right in first tunel almost near starts will be much better to manage an ambush from Skaarjs;

3) Pick a random name (Male, Female, Dog, Cat, Fish, Snake, Pig, any creature) use that name for the TAG of MonsterEnd which will be bInitiallyActive=False. Use the same name for Event granted by Skaarj-Boss. When Skaarj is dying will launch event hitting End. This one will be active. Assuming we have a huge collision toucheable immediately by hunters, will trigger ending of game.

4) Last point: From Editor use "SaveAs" and name it MH-......unr - pick your name.

5) Optional Stuff:
a) If you need, you can assign another TAG for all those Skaarjs and Even for Boss. Near End, put a HomeBase with the same TAG. If they start to be chickens won't run like mads through map. Will attempt to stay grouped at HOME "guarding" the end. Bot will face them directly in a bloody battle (because you spoke about fun);
b) More crazy things. Place Home between End and tunel. One of closer Skaarj might have order patroling (if you set it). Add 2 or 3 PatrolPoints, setting them is not very hard with a bit of logic, I learned this stuff directly without tutorials. Make a cycle through those 3 patrols. Also you can put an AmbushPoint nearby HomeBase;
c) AlarmPoints for 3 guys from group and others as well placed different making hunter to believe that will be surounded. I think will be happy - can attack in any direction, :D;
d) Boss will be Boss or just a bigger idiot ? Modify projectiles with some Rocket type or Dispersion level 3.
If map is ugly at least you can do small tunes to enhance A.I. and a funny battle.

Other suggestions ?

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Jul 29, 2013 5:38 pm

Relatively speaking, bot pathing isn't wholly necessary on this map. Even if played online, bots tend to protect/cover the first actual player that isn't a bot... so they'll follow whoever's on the map that's an actual person.

If I were to host this online, if I ever do that again, I'd probably only play with 2 bots.

Otherwise, have at it. Sounds like you've got it worked out perfect.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Mon Jul 29, 2013 11:34 pm

I toyed a bit adding even a Home and teaming monsters by default, Skaarj-Boss is the Leader (for default MH). No need aditional things because they ambushing player by default noticing their strength. Eightball added with fast spawning ammo at begining make possible defeating first attack in big parts (death is a part of action). Near End (warning - this is also OtherTriggerTurnsOn set), I put a few ammo spots, and healing with Vials spawning a bit faster than in default. For a normal MH game map is enough balanced. I played it 4 times with 3 Bots. Is good to have paths in map to see bot able to find road at ammo and to move well during combat.

You know, toying a bit in Editor with such a mess, you might be able to see how was worked. MA is not only a crap as a game-type (I'm still wander a lot why Shrimp left that class in mod), but were enough smart rebels (I guess they did not know what they usually doing) setting MA maps with the same name for different files (Packages) and trash ideeas. Stupid cubes without to much design, also like this one - unfinished, unplayable, BUT were uploaded in some public place as MAPS.

____
PS: I'm wander why in forums at some section named "Map Reviews" not exist such a subject to debate. Author is still in UT ? He don't think is time to fix the mess (or doesn't have dignity to ask help) ? A bunch of "maps" need reviews but I'm suprised to see nobody interested.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Jul 30, 2013 12:26 pm

Keep in mind I selected a crappy map on purpose. Thhis one wasn't the worst but it's up there. Next one I've got in mind has a similar no end in sight issue, but it's better.

Think I'll drum up a list of the really good MA maps when I get home tonight.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Tue Jul 30, 2013 2:10 pm

Good, let's see what is about. Until next chapter I'll setup a small problem (a real one) in BotPathing thread.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:27 pm

First batch of Monster Arena screenshots. I skipped the ones that came with the initial install of MonsterHunt, these are ones that were made later by mappers I've collected.

MA-64K-DarkSurvivor:
Your ship, not big enough to fit even really one person, crashed in a crater. You defend yourself from waves of monsters until a rescue vehicle comes and gets you. Map doesn't have any glaring errors.
Image

MA-300K-Hexahedral:
Sort of a churchy feel, there's a somewhat visible Warlord that fires redeemers, and a few mantas around the place. Kill the Warlord to win.
Image
Image

MA-Invasion:
Crappy bot pathing, never played it all the way through to determine if it ever ends. Mostly SkaarjMilitary monsters, spawnpoint is at another location... you teleport in.
Image

MA-Dour:
Arena setup, several SkaarjAssassins and one massively powerful Krall. Kill the Krall and you win.
Image

MA-Monstrosity:
1 room, 1 corner has halls for defensive fighting. Monsters attack in waves, new ones entering through concealed panels and vents in the ceiling.
Image

MA-Unnerved:
Arena setup, one mega-healthy Warlord and several pupae. Kill the Warlord to win.
Image

MA-ThePoop (actually an 's' word but swearing is blocked in this forum):
Not bot pathed well. Boxy passages, mostly underwater. Fight many sea creatures, kill the Queen to win.
Image

MA-Source:
A Skaarj nest, teleport in from weaving tunnels surrounding it. Kill the Queen to win, guarded by pupae and SkaarjWarriors.
Image

MA-Twilight:
Kind of a beachy resort feel, some Slith and a massive WaterTitan, kill Titan to win.
Image
Image

MA-Warlords:
Badly named map, as there's only 1 Warlord on it. Kill him to win, many pupae to get through.
Image

MA-Warriors:
Arena feel, multiple energetic Skaarj with different abilities, each locked up and released after another is killed. Teleports in are kinda laggy.... went for a Stargate effect.
Image
Image

More to come.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:06 am

Oh yeah... Impressive works ideed. EG you know why I'm a bit jealous ? Those guys seems to have a lot of free time to develop "maps".
Is a common thing to release something somewhere awaiting congratulations and all trumphets to reward the trash properly. Even the most of them have the same name for almost all involved packages, sound, mod, texture, music - I won't waste time to see how works this in a server with a clean client. Maybe works... I have to try someday.

The only thing that need to be added in a new MonsterHunt... whatever, an optional mod to be added - a new game-type, a more proper controller for MonsterArena recovering these... maps ? Anyway some of them cannot be ended as they are - bad or not triggered properly. First we need to fix them since authors (cube-drawers) have no ideea what is about in this game-type and they cannot fix anything, neither to set paths correctly.

As summary described in original game, everybody tended to add that end in the middle of arena doing nothing else. Original controller was not developed to make a Bot to go closer to end looking for Boss, and Bot won't find any path to end because ... cannot fly by default and is not instructed for such stunts.

Given these parameters, Arena, Boss, The End, if I'll toy with a controller I need to setup A.I. with a bit of logic. Homeworks for A.I. from a possible new MonsterArena game:
1) Boss is main threat - find path to Boss (Boosted away - recover navigation with GPS) - only if Boss is not too close (shoudn't be killed so soon);
2) No path to boss - try to find a nearby PathNode in range and go there;
3) If there is no PathNode around Boss try to find END (not sure if need this) else find a closer node to end;
4) None of these options available ? Roam or wander in area (maybe will meet some steak to eat).
Note: To avoid a bunch of Foreach calls I have to implement a Target Actor having a null value at begining. A function will sort which Actor will be target based on map parameters in next second triggered by Bot. Once found the target Bot will see what can do with Target without to sort a bunch of data each second.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:29 pm

One of the ones not listed above was this: MA-TheLonelySouls. I edited it last night, so far as skinning the Krall differently, music, and some other things.
Image

Then, for kicks, I changed the 'MA' to 'MH'. While it will play in MonsterHunt, there's no way to win it due to the different gametype. The boss gets killed and you're stuck there.

Guess it was too much to hope it'd be that easy.

I'll shoot you a screenshot later of how this map looks in UnrealEd. Can't speak to the o9thers as I haven't looked, but this map was heavily pathed.
Last edited by EvilGrins on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Aug 07, 2013 8:40 am

Aforementioned pathing, slight angle:
Image

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by Nelsona » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:52 am

Completely wrong settings there. I think you wanna know arguments.

First point-question is: Why I need to see Bot Visiting 50 WayPoints around Boss ?
First contact with other Waypoint than required will break attack.

Second point-question: Is not a child of MonsterEnd this trigger MonsterArenaEnd ? Bot will try to go there without messing up a crapton of Waypoints. Mapper was a total noob in this case. Also noticing the insane desire of Bot for an armor, this could be a good target for a Freelancer without too many headaches... but none of these authors couldn't manage a normal DM subject.

MonsterTriggerMarker ? Is not usefull at all, only as a pathnode. Here I'm happy to see a null deal with it or else Bot Support in other MA or MH games wouldn't be easily fixable without keeping errors.

In original was developed a KeyPoint. I used the same technology (to not break something) developing another custom Waypoint with protection. Even with protection, in this case does not have a good purpose.

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Re: Converting MA to MH

Post by EvilGrins » Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:06 pm

Well, to be fair this map is old. Close to shortly after MH/MA was originally created. People were still working out the hows and whys of monster gametype mapping back then.

Also, the EndWay (whatever) the bots can't effectively get to. It's too high off the ground, even jumping, normal jumping, it can't be reached.

I don't know the particulars on that. My editing skills aren't enough to say how that End is connected to the Boss.

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