MH-Afterdark 2!

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Terraniux
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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Terraniux » Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:03 am

Oh seems I made the part with the skaarj too much of a puzzle. You can go way beyond that part.

After you pressed the lightbutton, there is small door to the right, that leads to a path to the bridge. there is a switch there that the splits the floor in half and makes a new path open all the way down to the darkmatch arena.
You've probably seen in it in the editor, is not hard to miss. I also placed the monsterend actor there temporary.

The reason i did this is because I see more and more that people want a little challenge as in U1 to puzzle a little bit and then to back to the shooting or war , give it a fun name . Im trying to give AD2 all elements of fun gamplay -- jumping , killing loads of monsters, a bit of puzzling , secrets and funny things as traps haha. I want them to have a blast playing.


BTW what door(s) gave you some trouble?

Anyway both of you thanks for the feedback already. I can always count on you guys! :D

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Nelsona
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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Thu Apr 21, 2016 12:23 pm

I don't know what trouble has whatever door but I can see broken Path-Net - LiftCenter NONE + LiftExit NONE I don't see the rest of COMBO + LiftTag NONE doesn't make sense.
In this stage Bot won't end map - I advice you to mark "ShowPaths" in Editor, go figure...
BridgeCounter spots also are unavailable for A.I...
Once again Inventory-Soup can be replaced with 1 single thing from each type with respawntime 4 - 5 or whatever.
PathNode184 doesn't have link with 185.
We don't see paths to Lever Mover4.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by EvilGrins » Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:14 pm

Terraniux wrote:You've probably seen in it in the editor, is not hard to miss.
I may be one of the few people left that doesn't check every map in UnrealEd. When I test a new one I just play it... A LOT.

When I went in to edit the Skaarj, that's all I did. Didn't poke around to look at the rest of it.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Thu Apr 21, 2016 3:28 pm

EvilGrins wrote:I may be one of the few people left that doesn't check every map in UnrealEd.
Me too, the problems comes later. While I try my MH2 with Bot from my stomach I trigger finding MH objectives. Then, ON-Screen messages went bad. Next move was dropping into Editor for summary check (aprox. 5-10 minutes), bugs are showing up shortly, it doesn't need 1 week of tests. If doesn't work as LiandriInvasion or Demons][ or whatever... then we cannot speak about any Bot doing things by itself and not even covering player if paths are broken.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by EvilGrins » Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:55 pm

Now I get this isn't your final version, but 2 things of interest:

1) Pathing for bots ends at the "trampoline". Not bad, not everybody is a bot fanatic like me, but it might be cool if there was a way to get them upstairs other than knocking them a bit off-center when they're falling from their bounce after the spawnpoints have been updated.

2) Kinda connected to that previous 1: there's no bot pathing upstairs.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Terraniux » Sun Apr 24, 2016 7:09 am

Yeah that part is still in consideration. I hoped that the bots would work on jumpers , going to the direction of the skaarj and continue their walking. After the second spawn they sometimes work then they get a little push from the shock rifle. Again, this is just to view the gameplay without any killing or pressure, to see if every door works and no bsp cuts and such occur.

I make some stairs there for the bots, unless someone knows a workaround for the bots to handle jumpers, as they do with normal moves.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Sun Apr 24, 2016 12:26 pm

My problem is one... very confusing. I cannot understand either why for Mother of God NOBODY but NOBODY is looking at CTF-Coret how are Kickers handled + swJumpPad is an already Kicker and NavigationPoint stuff, a great "2 in 1" tool. Some mappers have used that in DM maps and it works like a charm. It can be used in MH as well because Navigation it's not very different - it's Assault-Like (but not Assault).

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by EvilGrins » Mon Apr 25, 2016 1:03 am

I don't pretend to know how they do it, but it's possible to path the open air. As bots already get on the jump, probably just need something near the top that makes the bots lean to the landing up there.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Terraniux » Mon Apr 25, 2016 4:07 am

Nelsona wrote:My problem is one... very confusing. I cannot understand either why for Mother of God NOBODY but NOBODY is looking at CTF-Coret how are Kickers handled + swJumpPad is an already Kicker and NavigationPoint stuff, a great "2 in 1" tool. Some mappers have used that in DM maps and it works like a charm. It can be used in MH as well because Navigation it's not very different - it's Assault-Like (but not Assault).

Good insight there Nelsona. I'll look into it. Thank you.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Terraniux » Mon Apr 25, 2016 5:42 pm

I GOT THEM MOVING FROM A TO Z, yes that means to every end of the map. there are some very few spots they might get stuck -- that needs a bit of tweaking. The player needs to push the buttons though and open the doors, since the bots don't care about triggers and shiny lights.
So if the path is completely open and they would still be far away the cover-me command works. So I guess the first mission is successful.

Thanks to that insight of Nelsona. I tricked the bots with a double kicker in air as used in CTF-Coret. :D

Although I used the exact same setup as CTF-Coret they keep stuck on the LiftCenter/LiftExit actor. After I deleted them both and placed a weapon near the glass doors, they got shiny eyes when they saw it.

BUT as you understand there is one big flaw now, I have them only walking when they get bribed with weapons and inventory pickups on the map. Without them, they wont move a single inch. Or just move a little and return back and forth. Makes sense but no sense at the same time. If you would present a bot the biggest and badass gun ever to pickup and tease them with a eatable peanuts, they will surely follow. Yes I did some real UED-PATHING - examination.

So I guess the workaround for this would be MonsterWay points and a sh*tload of monsters in it. But how do I use those? Nelsona could you give some some insight on this, please? You and EvilGrins already deserved again a big name and credit in my map :D :D

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Thu Apr 28, 2016 5:08 pm

I did at a moment in a map a sort of PowerNode. That thing was able to block a Bot which doesn't have many weapons. It was using a desired number as a minimum of load. In Node range Bot was collecting stuff until Node allowed them to move forward. That was one of good craps which I did after understanding JumpSpot functionality.
Another Node was HuntNode. Smarty placed is able to deny A.I. hunter from racing like a dumbass and not killing all enemies.
Also if it's used TouchDisabler MonsterWayPoint cannot be completed neither by accident. Killing Some Mission-Boss grants permissions for touching that, also prevent stupid race with mission failed (Gods types maps).
The rest of stuff is doable for a map in purpose not very generally. Some Levels need unique things, others common things. MyLevel has the job for add-ons without other useless files loaded.

Edit:
First objective (trigger) for Bot has to be completed with MonsterWayPoint with very valid lines connected until area around it. This check is doable without even to use any Bot in an empty map (no monsters yet). Primary target "Position 1" needs a player tester able to use <RememberSpot> command. Then from PlayerStart(s) location will use <ShowPath>. If WayBeacon doesn't spawn, PathNet is broken, don't count on Bot there.
Debug:
- move around that first trigger and WayPoint and... retry ShowPath. WayBeacon (Lamp) shows up visible ? All right, we have some links. Move back for a few Nodes more closer to Start Location, do another check from that random point. Still Lamp shows up ? All right it works, step back and back testing with <ShowPath>. In the moment when Beacon stop working and log says "... didn't find path" then in that area exist a problem. Yes, debugging is doable with game in a small Window and log opened, log always talks about issues.
Possible wrong things:
- a Node too Far
- a Node to high
- Bad geometry
- a Node too low
- a Node without a visual contact with a next one
- a Node rammed - some dumb people are moving them and they do this wrong - to close to a wall - in a BSP problem, etc.
LiftCenter and LiftExit are not 2 things, the minimum of combo is <LiftExit/LiftCenter/LiftExit>, what you could see in noob maps is wrong. All these do need a LiftTag unique for that section, even if lift is missing - see high spots in DM maps using JumpSpot (a sort of LiftCenter after all). There are a mountain of "custom maps" which are sh!t at lifts but still morons are clapping hands being clueless why they still do have problems at several spots - and... Bot is stupid in there not the dumb pathing done.
Polge's documents are pretty closer to what we need, of course, the rest are "hidden issues" of engine causing an advantage if I want a "special" Navigation fooling engine - yes, we might have advantages around bugs and which are helpful at a moment. That's another chapter that can be learned after getting into main stuff.

This week-end if you really wanna do a proper pathing I might write a sort of "MH pathing debugger" toy for checking spots. This way you can track if WayPoint has a valid A.I. route.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Terraniux » Fri Apr 29, 2016 2:30 pm

So you are saying that for a bot, MonsterWayPoint has a higher priority rather than collecting inventory items?
Is there any kind of special properties that I must configure, like tag and event? Or just simply place it and connect it to the pathnetwork?




The new cool and additional stuff you are telling about is for the new monsterhunt mode right?
Yes I'd like that.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Fri Apr 29, 2016 10:22 pm

Terraniux wrote:So you are saying that for a bot, MonsterWayPoint has a higher priority rather than collecting inventory items?
Is there any kind of special properties that I must configure, like tag and event? Or just simply place it and connect it to the pathnetwork?
MonsterWayPoint is a MH goal for A.I. (Bot and child classes) Actually has 0 priority in default Bot habbits. Bot has no reason for mooing with that Keypoint but he listen to directives fired by Controller. Secondary target if all Waypoints have been touched is MonsterEnd.
What we have:
- KeyPoint called MonsterWayPoint, is NOT a NavigationPoint so it cannot be connected in Network (advantage to be modified Post Pathing)
- MonsterEnd is a trigger - in special handling situations Bot runs at a trigger - if wants to open a door linked with that trigger else trigger is other thing not specified in A.I. codes - also MonsterHunt push Pawn here if doesn't have anything else specified.
If none of these is available, Bot attempt default roaming habits in crawling for items - yes, for items. If a room is empty, even if fully pathed Bot won't go there because there is no reason to do that.
Aside a MH map can be tweaked in DM style if mapper have idea how a Bot does roaming for items. By placing items in some order desired native by Bot, it will attempt to get all of them (if map is not an useless giant) so has chances to advance in areas facing threats from any kind. Usually MH uses MonsterWayPoint and MonsterEnd as in examples from Canyon map by Shrimp himself (screwing up here and there). LiandriInvasion (SkaarjVersion) is an example almost Perfect (not sure if not 100% good at Bot chapter) simply has no flaws for MH in default - even if Bot has 1 hp health will go to hunt (bad move for Shrimp - or perhaps not). Else bot with 1 hp is almost retarded - my decision for MBot.

If map is presumed to work in DM style, then different items need to be placed around main combat zones. How do prioritize Bot this collecting race ? Oh... well I never knew but I was able to find that. How ? I made a BotyMan mutator for testing DM stuff currently has Version3. Human can track the same routes as Bot in collecting items except stuff which belongs ONLY to Bot (JumpSpot) human cannot see any route through that point - never ever. Else human can find items and might have a clue how will act Bot in that Level. Aside if admin is mad because Bot is too predictable in Navigation, things can be "improved" with another server-side mutator which I did called DynAI if I'm not mistaking. DynAI is able to get rid of bStatic craps of NavigationPoints default properties and is able to move them in small circles changing rotation speed randomly. Effects, some of them being pushed in a random moment unreachable Bot is forced to change route and will go less predictable in what it does toward items. These are other tech chapter which can be learned later. Of course we don't have restrictions at Mutators, CircleNodes and MobileNodes are already part of stuff that can be mapped but are not a very need for MH. In MH can be added other goodies. First we go for basic Path-Net well connected. For this reason we want to know how to test it and then we talk about "Bot Covered Me" or "Not covered". Default methods:
- Bot racing around (if has a reason for doing this);
- RememberSpot and ShowPath commands known by testers;
- custom stuff a la BotyMan or such.
As you can see, Excuses are bullshit, we can do job correctly as long as we can figure bugs easily, truly easily.

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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:59 am

All right,
Terraniux wrote:The new cool and additional stuff you are telling about is for the new monsterhunt mode right?
Yes I'd like that.
To not forget, even if we still play default MH, the goal for a better A.I. can be done right in map, MH controller does Bot assistance but in map we might have a heavy work against "Shrimpy" nasty things.

So, checking MH-Templar as an old example of map with Bot Support, we have MHBotyMan able to confirm that paths are good. Random spots can also be navigated because... it works.
Of course you don't have to blindly trust me. Just check it.
MHBotyMan.zip
It's a mutator for DEFAULT MonsterHunt and similars (that one for coders and so called 5.04 too).
A practice session with mutator loaded has commands:
- mutate mebot - heads to waypoint or end - IF are in reachable position;
- mutate mytarget - spawn a target beacon at player location. This one will be a point to reach from other location of map;
- mutate mypath - intended to track paths to fore-mentioned Target Beacon;
- mutate visiblestuff - makes visible WayPoints and MonsterEnd - for figuring if reachable how can be touched;
- mutate hidestuff - makes them back invisible.
A Map like MH-Templar confirms that have paths all the time. If not Target Beacon might be spawned for testing areas suspected broken.
Go figure how does this work and you have a debugger toy.
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Re: MH-Afterdark 2!

Post by Nelsona » Mon May 02, 2016 2:23 pm

To mention something.
I have challenged myself to do some pathing in a map heavy loaded 1600+ creatures. How was that - hints for similar operations:
- checking Movers to not mess with return at encroach;
- using a toy for decimating 75% of creatures - speed up testing - I have modified something here against crashing;
- using temporary BPak stuff for fast advancing;
- using MyLevel stuff because of some geometry incompatible with default Old Father PathNode;
- doing nothing than letting Bots to drive the hunt, and covering them (usually I cover them not they covering me). While they were stuck at some point I could figure bad spots and adjusting position or changing stuff.
This work was started a long time ago but I quit due to time required for testing. Now because I have desired tools I could setup functional paths in 1-2 days. What has to be adjusted ammo (post-pathing to not load More Nodes) perhaps some healing spots randomly.

If work would be started from roots then everything must be ready before completing Monsters, only essential pawns mission related should be used for testing - doing tests faster. If pathing is done the rest of creatures can be completed later and whatever needs.

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