Weapon Speed

[*POTS*]

Tests ran on both MRS and CMM:
Single shot/shots with Redeemer----same speed
Single shot/shots with SniperDeemer----same speed
Guided missile----same speed

Additional test:
Radius of blast----same
Distance with thrown translocator----same distance

This test doesn't prove anything, since the servers are located way too close each other.
For a real test you should pick let's say CMM and a European server to get some decent ping differences. My opinion though.

[MEAT]

Tests ran on both MRS and CMM:
Single shot/shots with Redeemer----same speed
Single shot/shots with SniperDeemer----same speed
Guided missile----same speed

Additional test:
Radius of blast----same
Distance with thrown translocator----same distance

This test doesn't prove anything, since the servers are located way too close each other.
For a real test you should pick let's say CMM and a European server to get some decent ping differences. My opinion though.

Actually pings were quite a bit different...varying from 10 to 300 in difference.
If anything reaction times were different at first, probably because of ping
but after a few shots timing got better.
Again, I was measuring speed of a projectile not the reaction time of players.

[Hook]

Yes, MEAT is correct...
Ping doesn't affect projectile speed as far as I have seen and read.
Once a player fires a projectile, the projectile becomes a server sided "thing" that travels according to the Server's tick rate, etc., and not according to any player's ping, etc.
A projectile is a projectile is a projectile as far as the server is concerned.

[Hermskii]

Ping does matter and the advantage to bad ping is the server has a tick rate which is how many times it communicates with the player per second. Higher speed connections can enjoy more tics so they get smoother play but bad ping players get less tics. To them it is harder to play, harder to drive a missile but they take less damage too. Why you ask?

If they are in the radius of a blast and they only detect every other tic compared to a high speed connection, they only take 1/2 the damage. See!

About fast missiles. The only way I know it can be done is to speed up the clock rate of your processor while in game. That is called changing your multiplier on the fly. It will make missiles go faster but are also harder to fly. That is all about this from me for now. Peace.

[Hook]

Yeah, I guess with the ping factor, it is kind of a "Crap Shoot".
Or, which tic you get and which tic you don't get.
But, the server moves the projectile at the same rate regardless of any players ping - that is fact, and that rate is the server's tic rate.
It may not coincide with the player... If the player misses a tic or packet, it is discarded and the player will be updated on the next successfully received tic or packet.
This is what causes that jerk to another location when you lag.
Ping only affects each player separately as I said above and like what Hermskii said about the damage.
And that damage will vary from blast to blast.

As far as the tic rate is concerned also, most credible articles I have read about it say to leave it as is!
If you move your tic rate up, you MAY experience a smoother server (maybe not), and this is the part that Fools admins into changing it to a higher rate, but it can and does affect how weapons work and respond and it is in virtually every case - NOT good!
I have a very scientifically conducted testing article about this subject if anybody cares to look at it.
It is very lengthy but in conclusion it says that UT99's authors extensively tested the tic rate setting and they and this article agree - Leave the tic rate at the Factory setting!

[Hermskii]

Hook, have you ever seen a missile fly faster than the other player's? Many of us here have plenty of times. I say this cause I would swear you siad it matter on the ping and maybe that is right in that as I said, it depends on what the processor speed of the player's computer was when they started the game and how much it speeded up or slowed down which can alter the spead of the missile dramatically. Yes, the player's ping may stay the same but the speed of the deemer is clearly faster usually. Just making sure see what I mean or at least have seen a speeding deemer going twice as fast as all of the others in the same game. Peace.

[Killer Klownz]

Hook, have you ever seen a missile fly faster than the other player's? Many of us here have plenty of times. I say this cause I would swear you siad it matter on the ping and maybe that is right in that as I said, it depends on what the processor speed of the player's computer was when they started the game and how much it speeded up or slowed down which can alter the spead of the missile dramatically. Yes, the player's ping may stay the same but the speed of the deemer is clearly faster usually. Just making sure see what I mean or at least have seen a speeding deemer going twice as fast as all of the others in the same game. Peace.

Would not a classic example be the "laptop" redeemer? If the server takes control of the weapon speed after firing and therefore makes all redeemers the same speed how is the "laptop" redeemer explained?

[Hook]

Hook, have you ever seen a missile fly faster than the other player's? Many of us here have plenty of times. I say this cause I would swear you siad it matter on the ping and maybe that is right in that as I said, it depends on what the processor speed of the player's computer was when they started the game and how much it speeded up or slowed down which can alter the spead of the missile dramatically. Yes, the player's ping may stay the same but the speed of the deemer is clearly faster usually. Just making sure see what I mean or at least have seen a speeding deemer going twice as fast as all of the others in the same game. Peace.

Would not a classic example be the "laptop" redeemer? If the server takes control of the weapon speed after firing and therefore makes all redeemers the same speed how is the "laptop" redeemer explained?

Yes - Now that I think about it, and KK rattled my memory, I have seen it speed up but only in the case of the Laptop with the dual core as KK said.
In fact, I played it on my son-in-law's dual core comp one night and the other players complained that Both my player and my missile were going way faster than they and their's were.
However, I didn't notice ANY difference at MY end on MY comp!
Hmmmm - this is a good question!!!
So, maybe what I thought is wrong?
Does each player's install of UT control the server rather than the server controlling all the player's games?
(Does the tail wag the dog? - or the dog the tail?)
Or, is there a bit of both updating each other?
And, is this Only with the Redeemer? (probably because of its unique Alt Fire properties?)

This would be a good one to pose to Gopo!

[gopostal]

Let me settle this for you.

Weapon projectiles fall into a couple of categories. First you have instant hit, like the sniper rifle or automag. The instant you fire the server does a quick "draw" to see where the rifle was pointing and as soon as it hits something it either makes a smoke puff there or registers a hit on a pawn. Even if you add tracer fire, like my sniper rifle in Mayhem has, the actual hit is instant. The tracer fire is simply for eye candy.

Second type is the travelling projectile: Shock ball, flak, bio goop, etc. When you fire this it hands the projectile control to the server and the server handles the updates. Now a tricky thing happens in UT coding so let me explain a concept to you...

UT code has what is called "simulated" functions. These are things your install handles that are called by the server but made to render by your rig. This has the benefit of taking a lot of the load off the server and connection, but the downside is it may not always be totally accurate. For instance, if you are standing around not playing (like MHM members) you will see other players occasionally shrug or check weapons or look around. Have you ever wondered why you don't do that if you are using behindview? It's because you are actually causing that, not the remote player. Your local install plays what is called IdleAnimations for other players if they sit still. The server never sends that information. As far as it is concerned your butts are glued to your spot and unmoving. Most explosions are handled like this too. The server sends data to your install all the time like this:

Server to Hook> Play a rocket explosion at xyz (1333.54335, 45453.333, -2344.4455)

Once Hook's rig gets this command, all the functions of the rocket explosion are handled locally and the server never revisits this explosion. Damage however is handled by the server. This is why you sometimes take damage from explosions and you seemed to be outside the radius. Lag caused you to actually be inside the radius but your local game "drew" the "simulated" blast away from you. In a nutshell this is what you see when you notice those visual errors that come from high ping. Keep these concepts in mind the next time you experience ping related lag and I'll bet you can start to guess the things that are "simulated" on your own. It's a pretty cool way of doing things, as it REALLY eases the load the server has. The down side is UT has such a small bandwidth that lag has a strong effect even at small amounts. 2K4's pipe was much larger so the same concepts apply but are less impacted because there is more updating.

[gopostal]

OK, now lets apply this bit of knowledge to the GuidedWarShell (the flying redeemer). You are in game and fire a GuidedWarShell upwards to fly around:

Most all of the flying rocket is handled as "simulated" but regularly the server will check to make sure the client is accurate. If you stray too far from the actual position as determined by the server, you will be moved (subtly) into line with where you should be. From the actual code:

Code: Select all

// Server sends ClientAdjustPosition to the client to adjust the warhead position on the client side when the error
// is excessive

You can see where all this is going though, I'm sure. No matter your connection, no matter your ping, EVERY deemer flies at the same speed because every deemer is controlled by the server. It only appears to you to be different because of so much "simulated" code. Your computer is drawing all these things as commanded by the server but the data may or may not be accurate. This is directly why you can experience damage from a warhead explosion you were seemingly outside of.

I tell you a great way to demonstrate this. You've all been on a server when it crashes? Notice how you can walk around, but other players continue in a straight line? You can fire your weapon, hear the firing sound, yet no projectiles come out? You can make audio taunts yet not get them? I'll bet you can use these two posts and quickly make an educated guess at which of these are "simulated" and which are not

Hope this helped settle things.

[Hermskii]

Hi GOPO! I know you know this post is real and not simulated so you know I'm excited to see you jump in for the first time in a while. Thanks for explaining it to us. To the player on the laptop with this happening, all seems normal I'm told except it seems laggy some. To the others players in the game it all seems way too fast for a player to move that quick. Glad nobody has turned this into a cheat already but it would be easy to see and block going forward.

[gopostal]

It actually is a cheat. By locally altering your processor speed you can effectively flood the server with movement requests. Think of it like this:
The server and your local install all run on a timer called "tick". Imagine each tick is one second. It's much faster in truth, but lets keep it simple. Now on each tick you are running forward. So each second your local game and the server both see you move forward 6 feet (all correct).

Now if you monkey with your local processor speed, this has the effect of advancing the tick for you locally. This unsyncs the server>client relationship. The server sees you move forward your six feet, but your souped-up processor now demands you moved 12 feet because the local tick rate is doubled. Eventually the server corrects you and moves you back to the proper spot and updates your game as to your new and correct position and the whole thing starts over.

This is why laggy players are so darn hard to hit and why functions that are simulated locally (like a flying jet) and DO NOT have update checks (the redeemers do) can be made to go much faster on a server. I've seen processor cheats get their jets to go as much as twice as fast before the server starts to correct them. This is incredibly hard to catch without admin demorec proof and usually takes someone to try to fly next to them with them obviously speeding away to prove the cheat.

[Fuzz_Ball]

Very Interesting stuff here, Gopo.
So, one's local system can experience enough lag even though tthey may have a good ping?
Processor, RAM, router, cable modem, video adapters and ISP can all factor in.
So, assuming no one is running a cheat, would these factors help explain why I'll see my redeemer run right up Klownz's or Silent /3ob's arses and they still scamper off?

[gopostal]

It's not so much that you experience lag, but a solid, on-target hit depends on both players having an honest connection. You can have a LAN line to the server but if the other person is laggy or slow, it will noticeably affect the hit location.

As for the redeemer question, I'm reasonably sure Klown runs a local radar. Bob, I don't know. Never played enough with him. MEAT is just really friggin good, I've played him on his server and mine and he's equally good either place.

You know, I'd be interested to see how many "1337" deemer players would be interested in a neutral server set up with robust anticheat scanning? I know you can run PURE Fuzz, and occasionally you should run the package logger. I'm not kidding, you will be floored at the people who scan positive. Deemer only has a very low server overhead so anticheat scans would hardly be noticeable in-game. I'll bet you 50% of the best deemer players choose the game because of the relaxed servers running open games. When I set up the DeemerWorlds server very few of the good deemer players tested it out. Was that because of the fear of a scan?

[Hermskii]

Good point GOPO. That would be neat to see but when I ran a scanner on CG many years back for a short period of time, I did not catch a single cheat and yes, I was up to the latest greatest cheat protection when I did it.

My sense is that if you cheat in a Deemer Mod, you are just sad. Very sad! I also don't think that Klownz has a radar because I have played with him at his place and on MEAT's. I have stood by him and watched him. I have chased him before too without him knowing. MEAT spins constantly, never stops moving and takes the high positions often. He is just that good as you say.

I would not want to run cheat mod on my server but would love to see results on Fuzz's if you can run one that people don't know is on. Silent Bob is just another totally awesome player and has to much class to cheat. In all I'm saying I don't think people cheat in Deemer Mods but I'd love to see proof that I'm wrong and who it is!