S3TC Textures again...

[{§ÎR}Írôn Chef]

ok thankee sir ! I'll see about messing about with this this evening , I'll post here if I get in deep twubbles trying to get it up and running lol


Have a good weekend all


Chef

[*POTS*]

Hi Chef! Either way is the right answer. The S3TC install has become easy but there are still some known issus it seems. I've been using them again for months now with no problems. At the same time, a basic install will work great too and a basic install and usage of one of the latest modified OpenGL renderers works wonders too. It is all good at the moment to use any method of video rendering to be honest. Wow! I never thought I'd say that...

Hmm... Not sure yet.

There seems to be a brand new "Draw Distance Bug" affecting ATI cards (no idea about NVidia cards but who knows).
To keep it simple, the distance doesn't get drawn further if it's too far away, and you'll get an HOM-like effect.
Only a limited number of maps are affected by this bug (DM-Crane, DM-Hyperblast and TheSunspire among the others).
As regards a possible fix, the only way is installing the latest D3D10 renderer, which has a special setting named Unlimited View Distance (it sets view distance to the maximum supported map size).

Thanks to Leo(T.C.K.) for the heads-up.

As regards my opinion, I think I'm gonna stick with OpenGL since a very limited amount of maps is affected. Every day a new bug, meh.

[Hermskii]

Thank you for the heads up POTS. It is always good to hear from you and even better when you save someone from trouble. I suspect the OpenGL guy will be fast at work trying to implement a fix as well to continue support for the S3TC stuff. Thanks again as always!

[Hook]

Hey, I concur with Hermskii's reply.
Always nice to hear from you *POTS*

[Diehard]

To *POTS*,

For the upcomming release i need a bit info from you. You mention the Non Tiling clouds that is caused by the SkyBox.utx package, right? And you never encountered it with other packages that also have S3TC clouds in them, right?


Than in your list you mention the ShaneSky.utx package that has misaligned Angel/Devil icons textures, and a possible chrash on that package. However the mentioned textures are in the ShaneChurch package, and i also know it contains a texture that either chrashes(caused by the missing Palette2 from the SMoon2 texture, the purple/blue moon that is) your game and/or gives an online mismatch. So is the ShaneSky package an error from you , and dont you mean the ShaneChurch package instead?


The Skybox problem can be fixed, as well as the crash/mismatch can be solved, but from the spot i cant solve the misalignment in the angels. And for the misalignment i also have a question. It wont be the first time people notice something odd in the high resolution textures simply because you can see things better now. And the main question there is, could you carefully check the normal and S3TC version to make damn(sorry for the word) sure its not misaligned as well with the original package, and only more noticable on the S3TC versions.


And i am asking all this because its critial information i need to know to solve the bugs in this upcomming update. So i really would appreciate it, if you could answer my questions, and if possible spend a bit of time to carefully compare the normal and S3TC angel/devil textures. And its simple if they are misaligned than they are misaligned, simple as that, period. I just ask you to check again, and really, really study whats happening there.


And it could very well be you are 100% correct and they really are misaligned because those are S3TC textures that came from the 2nd CD and are not made by me, and quite alot of the 2nd CD textures actually are misaligned ! ! !

So if possible, go study them more closelly
.
.
.

[*POTS*]

You mention the Non Tiling clouds that is caused by the SkyBox.utx package, right? And you never encountered it with other packages that also have S3TC clouds in them, right?

I'm not 100% sure here, recently I was playing a "revamped" version of that MH-Arden map and I noticed a similar problem with the sky. I don't know what kind of texture pack that map is using though.

However some days ago I spoke to Leo(T.C.K.) and he told me that bug might be caused by the drawscale of the S3TC texture skybox.skystax being too low, so you can see the seams. Not sure what does that mean, since I'm no mapper.

Than in your list you mention the ShaneSky.utx package that has misaligned Angel/Devil icons textures, and a possible chrash on that package. However the mentioned textures are in the ShaneChurch package, and i also know it contains a texture that either chrashes(caused by the missing Palette2 from the SMoon2 texture, the purple/blue moon that is) your game and/or gives an online mismatch. So is the ShaneSky package an error from you , and dont you mean the ShaneChurch package instead?

The Angel/Devil icons do appear slightly misaligned in DM-Agony for some reason, while the original counterparts looked fine. I never said they belong to the ShaneSky package.
As regards the GPF error I'm not sure it was caused by the S3TC texture, since I've got so many different error messages by playing UT over the years.
I however had other problems with the ShaneSky package (non-masked planet in some maps) so I had to replace it.
There's also a nebula picture in another texture pack which appears to be squared, but I don't know the package it belongs to. I think it's the same package used for the skybox of MH-Arden.

The Skybox problem can be fixed, as well as the crash/mismatch can be solved, but from the spot i cant solve the misalignment in the angels. And for the misalignment i also have a question. It wont be the first time people notice something odd in the high resolution textures simply because you can see things better now. And the main question there is, could you carefully check the normal and S3TC version to make damn(sorry for the word) sure its not misaligned as well with the original package, and only more noticable on the S3TC versions.

Read above. Might take some screenshots and post them if it can help.

And it could very well be you are 100% correct and they really are misaligned because those are S3TC textures that came from the 2nd CD and are not made by me, and quite alot of the 2nd CD textures actually are misaligned ! ! !

That would explain a lot of things lol.

[Hermskii]

POTS, you are the man. Great reply. Thanks! Fast as hell too!

Let's make sure to take the right amount of time here too. I trust POTS already did. Anybody else want to verify this stuff based on their machine? Let's not go fixing stuff based on one guys video driver if you know what I mean.

I'd do it but I honestly don't know what to look for exactly.

[*POTS*]

Alright took some screenshots this time.

1 - The ArdenSky one shows again those annoying seams. I have no idea about the affected package, since that map calls a lot of packages at once. I however have attached a copy of the map with the custom packages required to run it if you feel like checking it out by yourself.

[Edit]
Seems like the package for the skybox of that map is not an S3TC one, so the bug belongs to the original, non-hi-res textures, so please discard this note.

2 - The "WithS3TC and Without S3TC refer to the Angel/Devil pic in DM-Agony. As you can see there's a slight space in between the image when using the S3TC textures. I used OpenGL as my renderer but I don't think it makes a difference if using D3D.

3 - I also noticed the rock of the mountain in that same MH-Arden map looks a bit blurry if viewed at a close distance, but maybe it's just me and anyway is not a big deal. That map is really huge.

Hope it helps.

[Edit #2]
Thanks Herm.

[Diehard]

Ah, ok, that explains it alot better. For now ill give a short reply what can be done and what not.

- The planet having a square behind can be fixed. I already planned to make all planets and moons forced masked by adding a 1 bit Alpha channel.
- Unfortunatelly this cannot be done with the nebulas because i cannot cut around the nebulas, as they fade. And this could only be done by adding an explicit alpha channel that has 256 shades of gray to fade out. UT doesnt support that.........
- The angel/devil textures can easelly be fixed. I noticed that coloured line also looking at the textures themselves. It looks odd but i know Epic often deliberately offset textures for some reason. In the editor this can clearly be seen in the supper large Earth and Mars textures in the XbpFX package. There they did it correct, though i have no idea of why they did it ? ? ? It only complicates the creattion of the textures, but technically theres absolute no gain.

But no, here its an actual error, like more of those errors in the 2nd CD S3TC textures. Thats why bugreports are so important, i simply dont play UT and those are UT specific textures, so if no-one tells, than i am simply not aware the problem excists.


I talked to Leo as well and he suggested indeed it might be a DrawScale(ill explain DrawScale on a later timeframe) function mishap. I could look like that indeed if it goes bad. Though i asume its a reaction with the use of S3TC in combination with a render error. I suspect its ""kinda"" similar to the Skating/Frozen player glitch.

And the reason i dont think its a DraweScale problem, because the tool i use automatically calculates the DrawScale function, and i dont see any reason why it would disfunct on oné specific texture.

But never say never, at the end Leo could be correct, and i havnt looked at the original texture, maybe that specific original texture is missing the DrawScale function all together. Than it could happen alright.


As said ill explain DrawScale an leter timeframe, but that function is the ONLY reason why we can make S3TC texures. They ditched the DrawScale funtion in UnrealII, UT2003, and UT2004, well any game later than Unreal and UT. So we got real lucky there. No DrawScale, no URP and UTRP project
.
.
.

[Hermskii]

Great communication going on here folks! Every little fix helps!

[Diehard]

After a bit of testing, i concluded that the Angle1 and Angle2 textures are correct, and that the glitch that can be seen in Dm-Agony is an error in the map. When you look in the editor, you cannot see anything wrong. The normal textures too, are ok. When i looked at the S3TC textures, i noticed a colored band, but its sitting on the top of the textures and not in the middle. The original textures have that same colored band, and the Epic made 2nd CD S3TC Angle1 is simply a bloated up and bumpmapped original.

For testing i did follow. In the map you can see the textures on the left containing Demon1(top) and Demon2(bottom). On the right you can see the textures Angle1(top) and Angle2(bottom). Angle1 and Angle2 shows the error, while Demon1 and Demon2 are obviously correct. However when i save Demon1 and Demon2 over Angle1 and Angle2 evwerything should be fixed, after all Demon1 and Demon2 proofed to be correct.

In the screenshot below you can see that the error now apears in Demon1 and Demon2 as well. The textures were correct, so i can only conclude this is a flaw in the map. Likelly this flaw simply shows up due to the use of S3TC textures, but does not cause it.





Looking in the editor i noticed that the textures are compressed. It might be the cause of the problem. Its possible that due to the compression, the engine cant properly decide what to do with the last pixels and maybe it simply decides to repeat the range of pixels dirtectly above.


This stuff is oné of those rare occasions where an error is made visible due to the S3TC textures, but is NOT caused by the S3TC textures. Interestingly enough i tried to add a black texture and this solves the problem. Likelly because the repeating pixel has the same color.


Apart from that, i cannot fix it, simply because nothing is broken............


I will add it to the bugslist never the less, and futurewise i might give it a go to see if i can come up with some weird solution. But end of the story is, its not an S3TC texture problem. But a render/map error at best.
.
.
.

[Diehard]

Oh friggen........


Directly after posting above i noticed that the Devil1 and Devil2 DO have the same problem. Ok back to the drawingboard. Ill create a map using those textures and see if they show up or not.





P.S, i noticed that the other day as well, i cannot edit posts after posting.
.
.
.

[ZippityDooDa]

Oh friggen........


Directly after posting above i noticed that the Devil1 and Devil2 DO have the same problem. Ok back to the drawingboard. Ill create a map using those textures and see if they show up or not.





P.S, i noticed that the other day as well, i cannot edit posts after posting.
.
.
.

Diehard- only certain members have the ability to edit there own posts, just FYI.

[*POTS*]

After a bit of testing, i concluded that the Angle1 and Angle2 textures are correct, and that the glitch that can be seen in Dm-Agony is an error in the map.

Now that you make me think, I haven't noticed that problem in other maps using those textures (CTF-EpicBoy comes to my mind for example). Now that's a weird glitch for sure.

[Diehard]

I did a bit more testing, by simply build a cube wheres theres two 256 x 256 cubes stacked on top of eachother. In that way i ould add Angle1 and Angle2 to the map without scalling them. So i added them 1 to 1. The error is gone in that case. But when you look closer a tiny, tiny thin brown line is visible and it does not even go completelly across. So something is there in the normal textures.


I also repainted the S3TC textures, but does not help one bit. I suspect that something is wrong with the normal textures (read original). I looked at the settings, mainly to check if parts maybe are Masked, but all looks ok. At the end i looked with the S3TC textures in that map, and basically, aside the very, very, very thin brown line, you cant see any problem. If a player simply walks by he/she will never ever notice that small brown line.


So i asume the glitch in Dm-Agony simply emphesises the tiny problem, due to the scalling and compression(in the height). For now i think its fair to say there is no real solution, and the glitch is visible in that specific map, but its unlikelly you will ever see it again, as it doesnt happen often that a texture that actually represent something(in this case the girl) is stretched or compressed by a mapper.


So i am not gonna change anything yet, but i will add it to the official buglist(to be excact, the annoying bugs list )
.
.
.